My other problem is that I've discovered Joy of Life grows to 1.6m ...if you have a largish rose like this can you just prune it down without making it too unhappy (at any time of the year)?

Happily, in spite of my rose mishaps Cathedral City has bloomed and they are lovely flowers with a rosy smell. While I love the armloads of icebergs there's something very special about those deep and frilly flowers. My DA went dormant on planting to the point of looking dead and leafless but has started to leaf out. I can't wait to see the William Shakespeare bloom. Now who would have thought I'd like fussy looking flowers?

If you planted a climber without knowing it was one you may have to transplant where you can train it up something. Others more expert than I will know how you do that without damaging the plant. If you want to leave it there perhaps you could put a trellis up behind it - have a look in Bunnings for ideas or ask someone there. Or go for help to a handyman neighbour or rellie.

Tall roses are a problem in the garden aren't they, especially if they are thorny or have thick canes. I would love more info on how to train the blighters too after having had to hack at a few in my parent's garden. Mr Lincoln is one of the few HT's I love but I am put off growing it because of its growth habit. Perhaps someone could introduce a new thread on managing tall roses.

Have noticed that DA's don't put on a lot of new growth too. You don't see many watershoots on them - at least the ones I have grown but they are easy to strike from cuttings so you could try for more than one of those lovely W S's .